ACCIDENT

There is an interesting article in the November issue of Details magazine that addresses the problem of women deceiving men to get pregnant. Quotes:

It’s not about trapping the guy. That’s kind of old-fashioned. Yeah, you want him to be into it, but there are other ways to get a guy to commit. If you’re smart and in a good relationship, it’s just about the fact that you want a kid. I see and hear people talk about it, and I understand. I get it and I don’t even think it’s that manipulative. It’s more like, ‘Hey, the timing is right for me. I got pregnant–oops! Well, it’s here, let’s have it.’ I think that’s more the way it is now than it was back in the day when you had to marry someone before you got pregnant. Marriage doesn’t matter now. (emphasis added)

Jody
got pregnant without telling her boyfriend


Any guy with a heart and soul, and preferably with a job, once he sees the baby on the sonogram or hears the heartbeat, will melt.

Vicky Iovine
author of The Girlfriends’ Guide to Pregnancy


She was like, ‘You know what? You gotta be a man. You’re gonna have to have a job 40 hours a week, and you need to support this child — this is your responsibility and your obligation.’ And I’m thinking to myself, like, ‘How is all of this my responsibility and my obligation when none of this was my choice?’

Jeremy
new father after girlfriend went off birth control without telling him

A few years ago I remember making fun of a friend for being so paranoid about this very same thing. He was dating an older woman he didn’t trust and would take home used condoms wrapped in toilet paper after spending time at her place. My experience since then suggests that he was more smart than crazy.

Guys, it’s simple: do not allow your sperm inside a vagina unless you are ready to have a child with the woman attached to it. Birth control or not, there is no amount of pleasure worth giving up reproductive control over.

If I got a girl pregnant right now, and she insisted on keeping it, I’d skip out of the country without hesitation. Since I’m very careful with my seed, any girl who gets pregnant by me is 100% using nefarious means and deserves no support or money for her deception. Send me pictures every five years.

I’ll be a father when I’m ready, not because a reformed whore is bored with her life.

122 thoughts on “ACCIDENT

  1. js

    “You don?t get to choose whether or not it?s a child simply by deciding whether or not to bare [uh..sic] it.”

    That’s actually exactly how it works.

    And if you really think women are poking holes in your condoms, here’s a thought: don’t sleep with those women, or any women. No problem. Just because the biological realities of pregnancy give women the additional opportunity to avoid parenthood post-conception doesn’t take away your opportunity to avoid parenthood pre-conception.

  2. Clarence

    “That?s actually exactly how it works.”

    Yes, but it’s not philosophically consistent. Oops. You’ve probably never picked up a book of philosophy in your life. My bad.

    “And if you really think women are poking holes in your condoms..”

    And if you think that a man might rape you on a date, don’t go dating…

    Oh, I forgot. That’s “oppression of women”. She shouldn’t be afraid that she might be guilted or drugged or coerced into unwanted sex. But damn: a guy shouldn’t be concerned he might be coerced into an unwanted financial slave to both the gal and the state.

    I made suggestion about an alternate system as regarding not rewarding this kind of behaviour from women. Changes in custodial rights, etc, rather than necessarily letting the man off the hook. Such suggestions were ignored which tells me you’ve never tried walking in the shoes of one who was the victim of such a crime.

  3. Clarence

    “In determining child support obligations, the law considers the best interest of the CHILD, not the Father. The law doesn?t give two shits if you aren?t ?ready to be a father? and society as a whole is better off this way. Otherwise we as taxpayers are stuck footing the bill for your child. Trust me the law will find a way to make absent parents pay? they will garnish wages, attach liens to any property owned, etc. etc. If anybody don?t want to be obligated to pay child support, man or woman, then don?t have sex. No form of contraception is 100% accurate; there will always be some risk that pregnancy will occur.”

    Blah, blah blah. Abortion is one hundred percent effective, but it’s only the woman who gets to make that choice. Once she’s made it, the poor sap she was with gets stuck with her choice. If more men knew this, they might be more careful with who they select as a sexual partner. They’ve made tremendous strides over the last few years in making a “male pill” that will take this level of control out of female hands. It will be interesting to see women’s reaction to it, when it comes out in stores and pharmacies. I predict a big feminist catfight.

  4. Clarence

    “I agree with DCB?s statements about not having sex without condoms, not letting your sperm near her.. etc. However, I believe the heart of the conflict between men and women perceived here is when men don?t see women as people, but instead as pussies and cunts, rolls in the hay, objects. Having objectified women, they have no problem believing that the women are objectifying them, seeing them as objects as well (wallets). It ain?t necessarily so.

    It is amazing how many women out there are believed to be scheming to find a life of bonbons and TV through pregnancy? as if the typical child support award of less than $500 / month would leave a woman reclining in the lap of luxury should the ?trapped? father actually be legally obligated to provide CHILD support. ”

    Have you ever researched paternity fraud? I can assure you it’s not a 1 in a million type of thing.

    As for your complaint about being treated as an object , well- despite the fact that there are women who treat men as wallets but we’ll ignore that for now- perhaps you should consider it from the man’s point of view. He has to take the initiative pretty much all the time. Most men, except for the very good looking, very socially comfortable, or very rich, have far more failure than success. Since you run the risk of being rejected and it hurts less to be rejected by an object, and since men tend to get far more rejections than acceptances, I think you can see why this happens. If you want it to change, you women have the power to do two things:

    A. Reject less
    B. Initiate more

    The ball is in your court on that one.

  5. dave

    How come no one has responded to the vasectomy suggestions? This is the only way to be 100% sure (as DCB claims to be). I had one, in office procedure on a Friday afternoon, hung out on the sofa watching football all weekend, and back to work Monday morning. No big deal, and never had to use a condom with my partner since. Its the best. Anyone still complaining, but unwilling to get snipped, is either a sniveling fuckwad, or better be able to address this.

  6. hedonistic

    Clarance: Do you realize what a whiner you look like?

    Women generally love the thought of the male pill, but already there are indications that men will be unwilling to take it because “they don’t want to mess up their bodies with artificial hormones.” Because that’s the WOMAN’s job.

    (snort)

    All this “mens rights” whining is just that, whining. Whiny baby privelege. WAHH.

    (PS: Spanky, marry me! I don’t even care if you’re actually a woman in disguise.)

  7. Spanky

    “if you think that a man might rape you on a date, don?t go dating”

    See, the problem here is conflating “the result of a consensual act is a result of which both parties are aware because it has been a biological reality for the entire history of our species” with “the result of a consensual act is the violent assault of one person by another.”

    In the first, having sex, you both know that the woman might get pregnant. You both know it, it’s just something that happens. It’s what sex is for.

    In the latter, dating, rape is a violent crime, a violation of the law and of shared morality and of one person’s sovereignty over their own body.

    It’s like conflating

    “if you don’t want to get fat, don’t eat so much cake”

    with

    “if you don’t want to be tortured, raped, and murdered, don’t eat so much cake”

    Rape, like any other violent crime, does not follow as the logical and natural consequence of ANY ACTION but the decisions of the rapist.

    The fact that here, on this webpage, people are conflating one with the other is very telling: having consensual sex while aware of the possibility of pregnancy with violent assault.

    Utter and complete, and totally pathetic, narcissism.

    Why do I care so much about this? Why am I, in the words of one poster, a “mewling beta male”? Because, apparently, I actually care about preserving and defending the autonomy and sovereignty of human beings? That’s a big part of it. But the other part is that I cannot stand to be associated, by virtue of being a guy, with all you pathetic losers.

    Did mommy not love you enough? Have you been rejected so many times by so many women that, instead of actual self-analysis to determine what about you makes you so undesirable, you decided the blame must lie with women? Are you infuriated by the notion that you might actually be responsible for your actions? Are you enraged at the thought of women having control over their bodies, even if you have fucked them? Do you hate the thought that women might be free to date, fuck, be total sluts, get drunk and have sex with whomever they choose, and not be punished with pregnancy and destitution? Can you barely stand the thought of not being able to rent out a woman’s womb, or purchasing an abortion, or having equal legal standing with the woman over her own body?

    Two comments are really telling:

    “This thread confirms the fact that Western Civilization is on it?s deathbed.”

    Ah, yes. Nothing says “self-absorbed loser who is afraid of women” like equating “having to take personal responsibility for your own actions” and “the autonomy of women over their own bodies” with the end of Western civilization.

    “Women choose who gets sex and when.”

    Nothing says “scared little boy” like establishing women as another class of being, outside the normal realm of human affairs, who must be appeased and scorned for their power.

    Seriously, do you guys realize what pathetic losers you are? Planning on running away to another country? Christ, what wankers. Has this actually happened to any of you? Doesn’t seem like it. Seems like this is just one more reason for you to bitch and moan about how women are out to get you and are all Teh Skank Bitches and Hos!!!! Grow up. You are not the center of the universe. Half the population is not out to get you. Seriously, I’d guess that significantly more than half the population holds you in nothing but contempt.

    So, please, I implore you: stop claiming to represent all men in the eternal struggle against big scary women out to get you. I’m embarrassed for both of us.

  8. Clarence

    ?if you think that a man might rape you on a date, don?t go dating?

    See, the problem here is conflating ?the result of a consensual act is a result of which both parties are aware because it has been a biological reality for the entire history of our species? with ?the result of a consensual act is the violent assault of one person by another.?

    I don’t know where you got that definition of rape, Spanky, but the law has significantly expanded what might be termed “rape”. I don’t much feel like educating you as to the nuances you are missing, but I’ll make a suggestion: Google Rape or better yet go to Wikipedia or best go to an online law encyclopedia. It’ll be an eye-opener.

    As for the rest, it does not follow logically. With today’s technology sex does not usually lead to unwanted pregnancy. With abortion it practically never does.

    “Why do I care so much about this? Why am I, in the words of one poster, a ?mewling beta male?? Because, apparently, I actually care about preserving and defending the autonomy and sovereignty of human beings? That?s a big part of it. But the other part is that I cannot stand to be associated, by virtue of being a guy, with all you pathetic losers.”

    Waaaaaah. I can’t make an argument, so I’ll throw insults. Waaaaaaaah. You’re looking like such a big boy there, “Spanky”.

    “Did mommy not love you enough? Have you been rejected so many times by so many women that, instead of actual self-analysis to determine what about you makes you so undesirable, you decided the blame must lie with women? Are you infuriated by the notion that you might actually be responsible for your actions? Are you enraged at the thought of women having control over their bodies, even if you have fucked them? Do you hate the thought that women might be free to date, fuck, be total sluts, get drunk and have sex with whomever they choose, and not be punished with pregnancy and destitution? Can you barely stand the thought of not being able to rent out a woman?s womb, or purchasing an abortion, or having equal legal standing with the woman over her own body?”

    Waaaaah. More shaming language. How old are you, Spanky? Did mommy let you off her tit yet? It’s not enough that you want women to be equal to men -nothing wrong with that – it’s that you want them to have the choices and men to have all the responsibility. That’s not treating women like adults. Fact is, if females want kids these days they have absolute control over whether or not they have them. I don’t think a man should be forced to subsidize a woman financially to support a child he does not want, when he has absolutely no choice whatsoever on whether that child will be born or not. All you and some of the others on here will do is whine if the man refuses to take responsibility for her choice. Anyway, this is 101 level stuff. I’m getting sick of explaining it to you already.

    “Seriously, do you guys realize what pathetic losers you are? Planning on running away to another country? Christ, what wankers. Has this actually happened to any of you? Doesn?t seem like it. Seems like this is just one more reason for you to bitch and moan about how women are out to get you and are all Teh Skank Bitches and Hos!!!! Grow up. You are not the center of the universe. Half the population is not out to get you. Seriously, I?d guess that significantly more than half the population holds you in nothing but contempt.”

    I note that to you women are superior beings who never fall prey to narcissism , that exclusively male fault. It would be laughable if you weren’t such a pathetic mangina. Grow a sack. There’s nothing wrong with noticing that with equal rights come equal responsibilities, and in terms of military service, employment law, and most especially the area of reproduction , women enjoy more rights and fewer responsibilities than men. It’s men like you who enable this, and, if you weren’t such a hypocritical asshole (who is probably in his first semester at some college somewhere) it wouldn’t be no skin off your flabby balls if other men decide other strategies for the dating and mating game these days.

  9. Clarence

    “How come no one has responded to the vasectomy suggestions? This is the only way to be 100% sure (as DCB claims to be). I had one, in office procedure on a Friday afternoon, hung out on the sofa watching football all weekend, and back to work Monday morning. No big deal, and never had to use a condom with my partner since. Its the best. Anyone still complaining, but unwilling to get snipped, is either a sniveling fuckwad, or better be able to address this.”

    I might actually look into it. Depends on how spermabanks operate though, as I want to be able to have a kid someday.

    I’d like to do it when both me and a partner decide the time is right, not when she unilaterally decides to trap me. So sue me.

  10. dave

    Wow. And here I was thinking its simply a misplaced sense of entitlement by these guys, thinking that life’s unfair if they have to live with the consequences of their actions, because they should have the right to disclaim (i.e., support)any child born of their actions. To be fair to Spanky, I think that rant is directed toward the more ignorant factor of the He-Man Women Haters Club out there, and not all the guys (most of whom are just whiners not willing to get snipped). Still, wow.

  11. dave

    Sorry. Should read “not support.” And Clarence, for someone who is so threatened by unwanted pregnancy, “I might actually look into this” isn’t enlightening, its halfassed. You can still have kids after vasectomy, they don’t chop your nuts off, they just disconnect them. No excuses for big boys.

  12. Clarence

    edonistic says,
    48 minutes ago

    “Clarance: Do you realize what a whiner you look like?”

    Do I particularily care what you think I “look like”? Your nick is “hedonistic”. That’s sure a nick the carries the implication of responsibility and fidelity which is what is necessary for successful marriages.

    “Women generally love the thought of the male pill, but already there are indications that men will be unwilling to take it because ?they don?t want to mess up their bodies with artificial hormones.? Because that?s the WOMAN?s job.”

    Not some of the feminists I read on the net, they don’t. Nor do the ones who want to trap men like this one little bit. I suspect we’ll see just how numerous your antagonistic sisters are when the thing is ready to hit the shelves.

    “(snort)

    All this ?mens rights? whining is just that, whining. Whiny baby privelege. WAHH.”

    I’m still looking for my “male privilege”. Could you help me find it? It’s certainly not written into any of the laws, nor is it enforced by any of them.

    “(PS: Spanky, marry me! I don?t even care if you?re actually a woman in disguise.)”

    Please do, Spanky. It seems like you got a real whiner, er winner of a female here for you. Narcassistic and perfectly willing to guilt any male at any time. I think with your lack of a sac, you’d be perfect for each other.

  13. Clarence

    “Sorry. Should read ?not support.? And Clarence, for someone who is so threatened by unwanted pregnancy, ?I might actually look into this? isn?t enlightening, its halfassed. You can still have kids after vasectomy, they don?t chop your nuts off, they just disconnect them. No excuses for big boys.”

    Hey dumbass, even a cursory reading about vesectomies will tell you the rate of successful reversal isn’t one hundred percent. It makes sense to have a back-up plan. You’re not telling me anything I don’t already know.

  14. js

    “Fact is, if females want kids these days they have absolute control over whether or not they have them.”

    So do men. It’s called “not fucking.” Women get a “second bite of the apple” because a) pregnancy biologically involves women exclusively and b) adults, regardless of gender, should have exclusive rights over their bodies.

    Incidentally, I am a woman and a feminist, and the day the male pill comes out, I am having a huge party. Can’t WAIT.

  15. Clarence

    o do men. It?s called ?not fucking.? Women get a ?second bite of the apple? because a) pregnancy biologically involves women exclusively and b) adults, regardless of gender, should have exclusive rights over their bodies.

    So? Where does a wallet come into this picture? Can’t women take care of themselves these days without snaring some man to support the offspring she wanted and he didn’t?

    And as for the “not fucking” part..wow, are you a ‘sex-positive’ feminist. It’s shit like this which is why I support legalized (heavily regulated) prostitution. Prostitutes don’t want to have your children ..it’s bad for business. And they don’t insist you subsidize their “second bite of the apple” with 18 to 21 years of financial servitude.

    Incidentally, I am a woman and a feminist, and the day the male pill comes out, I am having a huge party. Can?t WAIT.

    Goody for you. Now if you could convince all of your sisters and some of the “chivalrous” male politicians.

  16. lady bizness

    If this were a thread about women being forced into motherhood I have a feeling that everyone who has commented would be appalled at the notion. But somehow, when the issue is men being forced into fatherhood, there is nowhere near the sympathy for him. Whereas women have many, many opportunities to back out of motherhood (hell, you can abandon your baby at a fire station and no one will punish you), men have ZERO. And somehow, the fact that a dude has consented to sex means that he can’t make any further decisions, but a woman who consents to sex can do just about anything she wants, leads only a few posters on here to ponder the inequality of the situation.

    I’d expect this kind of “suffer the consequences” talk from some pro-life blog, but not among the more liberal ilk that read DC Bachelor.

    I noticed some people mention that abortion is actually a messier, more complicated procedure than NOW would have us believe, implying that just because a woman can have an abortion, does not mean that she get’s off easy. And that’s true. But to throw the “suffer the consequences” meme back into the mix: any woman who has sex should be prepared to deal with any pregnancy that may arise. All women have known their entire lives that they have the mixed blessing of being able to bear children. That’s just part and parcel with owning and operating the equipment. The fact that despite many advances in reproductive law, medical science, and social welfare programs women still have to bear the brunt of childbearing and rearing responsibilities is just a fact of nature. But punishing men by inhibiting their own rights is not a remedy.

    To touch on the factor of socio-economic status, it is definitely more common for poorer women to have out-of-wedlock children precisely because these women see themselves as worthless outside of their abilities to get and keep a man. This would be why I have known plenty of girls who have gotten abortions, and they were all at least solidly middle-class. Those girls had college, career, and marriage to look forward to. The girls I know who have kept the children they didn’t plan for are by-and-large, poor, uneducated, and unambitious. To them having children wouldn’t really ruin their lives, because their lives were pretty crappy to start with. Indeed, having children and and man is probably their biggest accomplishments in life. Plus, when you are poor with no good job prospects, the measly child support checks and welfare services you can receive as a breeder are quite a windfall.

    This is what keeps poor families poor. I have seen generations of these people repeat the same mistakes over and over again. Maybe if these poor girls with crappy lives knew that having a baby wasn’t an easy way to ensure a stady flow of income, they wouldn’t be so lackadaisical with their birth control. Then maybe they’d DO something with their lives.

  17. Clarence

    By the way, js, and for all you other half-educated commenters on this subject:

    n the cases discussed so far, the obligation to pay child support has been predicated upon the voluntary act of sexual intercourse. Is a man still liable for child support even if he does not engage in sexual intercourse with a woman, but merely provides sperm for artificial insemination and agrees with the mother that there shall be no child support liability? Once again, the answer has been yes. In these cases, the courts have uniformly held that outside the strict requirements of the jurisdiction’s statute governing artificial insemination, a mother simply cannot waive child support on behalf of the child and the father cannot waive his parental rights; such a contract is void as against public policy. (For an excellent discussion of why parties should be free to enter into such contracts, see Nancy D. Polikoff, The Deliberate Construction of Families Without Fathers: Is It An Option for Lesbian and Heterosexual Mothers?, 36 Santa Clara Law Review 375 (1996).)

    Can a man escape this liability if he has neither the intent to have sexual intercourse nor the intent to make a baby? The answer is no. So long as a man engages in an intimate sexual act resulting in his depositing of his sperm with a woman who then becomes pregnant, he is liable for child support.

    In State of Louisiana v. Frisard, 694 So. 2d 1032 (La. Ct. App. 1997), the mother and father of the child for whom support was sought met in a hospital while the father was visiting an ill relative. The mother was a nurse’s aid who has access to a variety of medical equipment. The mother offered to perform oral sex on the father, and, in the words of the father, “as … any male would, I did not refuse[.]” 694 So. 2d at 1035. The mother had the father wear a condom. The mother then removed the condom for the father, and unknown to the father, she inseminated herself with the father’s sperm using a syringe.

    The Louisiana court, noting that the probability of paternity was 99.9994%, held the father’s testimony that he “had some sort of sexual contact with the plaintiff around the time frame of alleged conception, although he denied that they had sexual intercourse” was sufficient to prove paternity. 694 So. 2d at 1036. This fact of paternity obliges a father to support his child. 694 So. 2d at 1034. In essence, because the father intentionally engaged in a sexual act resulting in his deposit of sperm with the mother, he is liable for child support.

    Another case reaching the same result on facts that are, quite frankly, bizarre is S.F. v. Alabama ex rel. T.M., 695 So. 2d 1186 (Ala. Civ. App. 1996). In that case, the father testified that he went to a party at the mother’s house. He had been drinking for several hours before he arrived, and had in fact gotten sick on the way to her house. At the mother’s house, the father continued to drink, and the last think he remembered was getting sick again and his brother putting him in bed at the mother’s house. The next morning, the father awoke in that same bed with only his shirt on. The father did not remember having sex with the mother, and he did not knowingly and purposely have sex with her.

    The man in the lower case -who was raped- was still held liable.

    http://www.childsupportguidelines.com/articles/art199903.html

    Afraid the advice to “abstain from sex” as if you were a monk” doesn’t always provide protection either. I wish a painful death on any of you who support these kinds of cases.

  18. Clarence

    “If this were a thread about women being forced into motherhood I have a feeling that everyone who has commented would be appalled at the notion. But somehow, when the issue is men being forced into fatherhood, there is nowhere near the sympathy for him. Whereas women have many, many opportunities to back out of motherhood (hell, you can abandon your baby at a fire station and no one will punish you), men have ZERO. And somehow, the fact that a dude has consented to sex means that he can?t make any further decisions, but a woman who consents to sex can do just about anything she wants, leads only a few posters on here to ponder the inequality of the situation.”

    Thank you for providing some understanding of a man’s various problems with our current reproductive regime from a woman’s perspective.

    Funny thing is, I wouldn’t halfway mind men paying child-support for “oopsie” preganancies if we could at least do something about female misbehaviors such as paternity fraud, stolen sperm, etc. Even if it was just changing custody. But rather than respond to these suggestions all idiots like “Spanky” can do is blame and shame and not ever, ever admit there might be some unfairness in the process, and that some of these unfairnesses could be remedied with babies starving on the streets. We actively subsidize female reproductive misbehaviours, but point this out and you are a bad guy who is out to enslave women or a “little boy” who doesn’t want to take responsibility for trusting his girlfriend not to steal his used condom.

    Pathetic.

  19. js

    “Can?t women take care of themselves these days without snaring some man to support the offspring she wanted and he didn?t?”

    The problem with this statement, and the cases cited where mothers can’t waive paternal obligations, is that child support is not the mother’s right, nor is it for the mother’s benefit. The right belongs to the child. I heartily support cases where moms who take child support and use it for their own benefit are penalized–they should be, they’re stealing someone else’s money. But the extension of the argument is that you can’t punish the child by removing half of its support because the mom was dishonerable, even intentionally.

  20. Clarence

    “The problem with this statement, and the cases cited where mothers can?t waive paternal obligations, is that child support is not the mother?s right, nor is it for the mother?s benefit. The right belongs to the child. I heartily support cases where moms who take child support and use it for their own benefit are penalized?they should be, they?re stealing someone else?s money. But the extension of the argument is that you can?t punish the child by removing half of its support because the mom was dishonerable, even intentionally.”

    I’ve heard this argument many times. In the case of courts and states that get a percentage of federal money based on the amount of child support they collect, and in the case of collection companies (who help set the guidelines -talk about conflict of interest!!) it’s hypocritical.

    Far as it goes, answer me this directly: If a mother was found to be dishonerable -shouldn’t her parental rights be terminated or severely restricted?

    The argument you present has two other flaws anyway:

    A. The woman is not forced to bring the child into the world. Perhaps she should have to consider the living standard she could provide it on her own when making her decision. You know, what with being an “empowered woman” and all.

    B. Sometimes child support has an income maintanence part. This tends to happen upon breakup of marriages, 2/3 or more of which are initiated by women. And often “child support” amounts exceed what was spent on children during the marriage. To me any extra child support beyond support for the basics of food, health, and education should never be imposed, merely allowed if the two parties themselves work it out that way.

    As far as a fair method of child support caluclation, how the guidelines were formed, etc, I refer you to Roger F. Gay.

    http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/5910/

  21. Spanky

    “It would be laughable if you weren?t such a pathetic mangina. Grow a sack.”

    Oh, I see. Someone who is wrong or stupid is, of course, feminine, if not down-right female. Which is simply part-and-parcel of your fear, or hatred, or both, of women.

    Sorry, I’m not a first year college student. My field of research is Grasci’s theory of ideology and its applicability to modern society – how do we create structures of power? More importantly, how do we get people to consent to power? And so it’s interesting to observe how people who are terrified by changes in power structures – that is, terrified that women have control over decisions made about their bodies – react by creating new narratives about women having all the power and men having none.

    Which, of course, is fascinating given the stark inequalities that still exist – women earning less than men, lower-income women facing enormous difficulties obtaining abortions even when they want one (see how many counties, especially in rural areas, lack any facilities that offer abortion services), rates of rape and physical abuse, and so forth. There is a large power structure involved, but it has shifted slightly, since Roe v Wade gave women at least the possibility of reproductive control. So we see, as here on this page, is an attempt to construct a new narrative about power in an attempt to justify, again, male control over female bodies.

    This, of course, is nothing new. See Klaus Theweleit’s “M?nnerphantasien” on the centrality of hatred of women and the acting out of violent fantasies against women to fascism.

    And it is just a narrative, just a story you tell yourselves. How often does this really happen? You offer anecdotes, the possibility of the threat, but no data. If this sort of thing happens, as I suspect, to a fraction of a percent of men, then you’re really just little boys sitting in a tree house telling each other BOO stories about evil women out to castrate you.

    hedonistic, I appreciate the offer, but I must decline. I am currently dating, and plan to marry, a wonderful woman who is a) a diplomat by profession, b) cooks me dinner, and c) fucks like a champ. My relationship with her is basically perfect, and a big reason for that is my ability to accept individual women as individual human beings, rather than as symbols of a dark, mysterious entity that must, as I said, be variously appeased in hope of permission for sex and scorned for their otherness. You guys, the MRA “we’re totally powerless, wah wah wah” guys, who find posession of a vagina to be a reason for fear, disgust, and contempt, should give it a try, because then maybe you too would be able to have a real, human, adult relationship, instead of cowering from all the sluts and whores out to get you.

  22. Spanky

    Sorry, typo: that would be “Gramsci’s theory of ideology,” not “Grasci.” If, in case, any of you were curious enough to look into a brilliant Italian Marxist and political theorist.

  23. not so fast

    And as for the ?not fucking? part..wow, are you a ?sex-positive? feminist. It?s shit like this which is why I support legalized (heavily regulated) prostitution. Prostitutes don?t want to have your children ..it?s bad for business. And they don?t insist you subsidize their ?second bite of the apple? with 18 to 21 years of financial servitude.

    It’s called personal responsibility and exercising judgment. Sex has risks, and pregnancy is only one of them. Abortions also have risks, much like vasectomies, of damaging the reproductive system. Heck, even a boob job has risk of death!

    You don’t have to fuck the low class trailer trash you meet at the club. You certainly can go find a prostitute somewhere, but even they sometimes get pregnant because no birth control method is 100% effective when used except abstinence.

    No one is debating the existence of paternity fraud. We see it on Maury all the time. (You are NOT the father!!) But no one can deny that if he wouldn’t be in that situation if he didn’t fuck her to begin with.

    The bottom line: wrap it or snip it, or make wiser choices about who you’re with. Imagine that.

  24. Clarence

    nd as for the ?not fucking? part..wow, are you a ?sex-positive? feminist. It?s shit like this which is why I support legalized (heavily regulated) prostitution. Prostitutes don?t want to have your children ..it?s bad for business. And they don?t insist you subsidize their ?second bite of the apple? with 18 to 21 years of financial servitude.

    “It?s called personal responsibility and exercising judgment. Sex has risks, and pregnancy is only one of them. Abortions also have risks, much like vasectomies, of damaging the reproductive system. Heck, even a boob job has risk of death!

    You don?t have to fuck the low class trailer trash you meet at the club. You certainly can go find a prostitute somewhere, but even they sometimes get pregnant because no birth control method is 100% effective when used except abstinence.

    No one is debating the existence of paternity fraud. We see it on Maury all the time. (You are NOT the father!!) But no one can deny that if he wouldn?t be in that situation if he didn?t fuck her to begin with.

    The bottom line: wrap it or snip it, or make wiser choices about who you?re with. Imagine that.”

    No dear. *Pats you on the head*. It’s called giving men responsibility whilst excusing women from any. Go back to home, do not pass Go, do not collect 200.

  25. not so fast

    I hardly think that bringing a kid into this world excuses women from any responsibility. They gain a hell of a lot more, especially if the father is anything like you.

  26. js

    “Far as it goes, answer me this directly: If a mother was found to be dishonerable -shouldn?t her parental rights be terminated or severely restricted?”

    No. We allow dishonerable people to be parents. We don’t stop people from having children because we disagree with their actions morally, unless the child is in danger (generally).

    “The woman is not forced to bring the child into the world. Perhaps she should have to consider the living standard she could provide it on her own when making her decision. You know, what with being an ?empowered woman? and all.”

    We don’t punish kids because their moms made bad decisions. And perhaps men could consider the living standard they can provide potential offspring before they have sex.

    “Sometimes child support has an income maintanence part. This tends to happen upon breakup of marriages, 2/3 or more of which are initiated by women.”

    Child support and alimony are two different things, and you don’t get alimony if you aren’t married. Last time I checked, poking holes in condoms doesn’t force men to say “I do.”

  27. Clarence

    “Oh, I see. Someone who is wrong or stupid is, of course, feminine, if not down-right female. Which is simply part-and-parcel of your fear, or hatred, or both, of women.”

    Ohhhhhhh. You trotted out the old fear of women canard. I mean really, don’t you lefties ever have any new ideas? A “Mangina” to me is someone who either believes in female moral superiority or male moral inferiority or both. You seem to fit the description perfectly. You kiss female ass better and cater to every woman’s whim, so you can pretend to be a friend of women, unlike all us other evil men.

    “Sorry, I?m not a first year college student. My field of research is Grasci?s theory of ideology and its applicability to modern society – how do we create structures of power? More importantly, how do we get people to consent to power? And so it?s interesting to observe how people who are terrified by changes in power structures – that is, terrified that women have control over decisions made about their bodies – react by creating new narratives about women having all the power and men having none.”

    “Narratives”? Gramsci? “power structures”? God, where have you been living the last 15 years? You might as well be a first year college student with such trite OLD bullshit. Oh well..it may not make much sense, and may not represent the real world, but I’m sure you make money off it Spankywhore, honey.

    I quote laws and link to THE woman who more than just about anyone set up our current child support system. And you talk about Gramsci and power structures. You, Sir, are funny.

    “Which, of course, is fascinating given the stark inequalities that still exist – women earning less than men, lower-income women facing enormous difficulties obtaining abortions even when they want one (see how many counties, especially in rural areas, lack any facilities that offer abortion services), rates of rape and physical abuse, and so forth. There is a large power structure involved, but it has shifted slightly, since Roe v Wade gave women at least the possibility of reproductive control. So we see, as here on this page, is an attempt to construct a new narrative about power in an attempt to justify, again, male control over female bodies.”

    Because of all the imaginary posters in this thread who have been arguing in your head about how we should restrict women’s abortion rights and chain them to the kitchen. As for women earning less than men, and yadda, yadda, those are old canards, and not relevent to this discussion- even if they were true, which they are not.

    “This, of course, is nothing new. See Klaus Theweleit?s ?M?nnerphantasien? on the centrality of hatred of women and the acting out of violent fantasies against women to fascism.”

    Because women don’t have fascistic or group tendancies themselves and never condone OR incite physical or mental violence against their own.

    You are a veritable list of feminist cliches, Spanky. Where’d they grab you from? Some sort of monastary in the middle of a liberal arts college? I suppose you could be a bot. You’re about as intelligent and on subject as a bot what with your insults and your inability to construct a logical argument to bolster your claims. I also suppose you could be an imposter of some type who is trying to make leftists and/or feminists look bad. You sure are succeeding. I haven’t run into someone with as many ideological cliches as you have exhibited in this thread for a long time.

    “And it is just a narrative, just a story you tell yourselves. How often does this really happen? You offer anecdotes, the possibility of the threat, but no data. If this sort of thing happens, as I suspect, to a fraction of a percent of men, then you?re really just little boys sitting in a tree house telling each other BOO stories about evil women out to castrate you.”

    I’d estimate paternity fraud affects 1 to 8 percent of female and male relationships. I can find stats if you want. Not that I think you want to stay on topic and argue stats. I doubt you could handle the math anyway. You don’t seem very bright.

    “you guys, the MRA ?we?re totally powerless, wah wah wah? guys, who find posession of a vagina to be a reason for fear, disgust, and contempt, should give it a try, because then maybe you too would be able to have a real, human, adult relationship, instead of cowering from all the sluts and whores out to get you.”

    Ohhhhhhhh. You said BAD WORDS. I hope mommy doesn’t spank you.

    Anyway, the only one “cowering” here is you, as you’ve eschewed real debate in favor of cliches and insults.

  28. Clarence

    No. We allow dishonerable people to be parents. We don?t stop people from having children because we disagree with their actions morally, unless the child is in danger (generally).

    Well, at least you answered. I don’t really know what to say to that except that the more you subsidize a behavior the more of it you get, and that apparently you don’t care to think about what kind of moral climate such a “mother” would provide her child.

    Guys, (and I don’t include Spanky in this group) you’ve been warned. This statement here incapsulates female irresponsibility.

    I think I’ll stick to prostitutes for awhile. They would make better girlfriends then someone with your attitude.

  29. js

    I can only speak for myself, but as a woman, I will be weeping into my pillow tonight, as I am not a prostitute and therefore will be unable to throw a leg over a man who champions moral eugenics.

  30. not so fast

    I?d estimate paternity fraud affects 1 to 8 percent of female and male relationships. I can find stats if you want. Not that I think you want to stay on topic and argue stats. I doubt you could handle the math anyway. You don?t seem very bright.

    1-8 percent? Staggering!!!

    Please, please stick with the prostitutes. Forever.

  31. Spanky

    Right, let’s see…I’m cliched, I’m talking bullshit that doesn’t make sense, I’m kissing ass, I’m dumb, and I’m cowering. And you accuse me of eschewing real debate?

    The only actual argument offered, other than “you’re wrong,” is the idea that paternity fraud effects 1-8 percent of male/female relationships. I’m guessing you basically waved your hand and made up this number. Honestly, it seems implausibly high. 1-8 percent of ALL male/female relationships?

    Simple experiment: men and women on this thread, please report a) the number of sexual relations you have had with the opposite sex and b) the number of paternity fraud charges you have either made or had made against you. Please, Clarence and I must know!

    Gramsci argued that consent to power is manufactured by the powerful among the weak. You end up with situations where, for example, a large majority of Southerners supported the Confederate cause, even though an incredibly small minority actually benefited from slavery. The economic considerations of the small slave-owning class where supported by an ideologically constructed “southern identity” which was supposedly at risk from attempts to abolish slavery. That is, a small number of rich people convinced lots of poor people to fight and die to defend the system that made them rich.

    Chances are, most of the men who buy the bullshit argument that women are out to steel their semen and their money via vagina are probably taking part in someone else’s narrative. Someone enjoys power and privelege by convincing you not to look too closely at how they became powerful, but rather by worrying about someone who is actually no threat to you at all. Divide and conquer, in talking point terms.

    So yes, I have lots of personal contempt for you, but you’re also fascinating from a theoretical standpoint, because you’re a classic example of ideological production and reproduction. Thanks!

  32. Clarence

    “I can only speak for myself, but as a woman, I will be weeping into my pillow tonight, as I am not a prostitute and therefore will be unable to throw a leg over a man who champions moral eugenics.”

    LOL! You got me to laugh, js. I gotta say despite the fact I think your moral stance is abominable, you at least show guts and a sense of humor. I have to respect that.

    But I see there’s to be no compromise. Somehow holding women to any standard of behavior at all about how and when they get pregnant always hurts the child. So screw it. I’ve tried to be reasonable, and I’d love to work out some compromises about these kind of things. But if that is not possible it looks like guys like me are going to have to stand aside as you reap the whirlwind of your misguided laws and choices.

  33. js

    Cheers, Clarence. And in your post, I think you hit on the heart of our disagreement, assuming that you don’t secretly want to enslave women and I don’t secretly want to enslave men:

    ” Somehow holding women to any standard of behavior at all about how and when they get pregnant always hurts the child.”

    I don’t think that it is the law’s job to hold people’s behavior to any standard. I think it is the law’s job to ensure that each individual has the maximum amount of freedom without encroaching upon the rights of another person. Here, we’re talking about the right of a man to control his pocketbook, versus the right of a woman to control her body, versus (at some point) the right of a child to its own support. That’s the calculus to me–how to weigh those rights in a way that prioritizes them appropriately and maximizes them.

    I think behavioral standards are important, and should be upheld, but NOT by the government.

  34. Clarence

    “simple experiment: men and women on this thread, please report a) the number of sexual relations you have had with the opposite sex and b) the number of paternity fraud charges you have either made or had made against you. Please, Clarence and I must know!”

    Make sure they only talk about relationships in which they had children, as that was obviously what I meant.

    I’d love to know your “thoughts” -such as they are about the “Towards a strict liability theory of sperm” -that I linked to. It’s only written by an expert. But you’ve avoided addressing any of those things.That’s precisely because reproductive LAW is one area which you can’t fit into your rather stupid silly paradigm. (“Paradigm”. See, I can get cliched, too)

    “Gramsci argued that consent to power is manufactured by the powerful among the weak. You end up with situations where, for example, a large majority of Southerners supported the Confederate cause, even though an incredibly small minority actually benefited from slavery. The economic considerations of the small slave-owning class where supported by an ideologically constructed ?southern identity? which was supposedly at risk from attempts to abolish slavery. That is, a small number of rich people convinced lots of poor people to fight and die to defend the system that made them rich.”

    Only partly true. There was loyalty to state and the biological desire to protect one’s family and property thrown in there too. Not to mention the racism of even lower class whites- which, indeed, was party manufactured. Once again, first year stuff.

    “Chances are, most of the men who buy the bullshit argument that women are out to steel their semen and their money via vagina are probably taking part in someone else?s narrative. Someone enjoys power and privelege by convincing you not to look too closely at how they became powerful, but rather by worrying about someone who is actually no threat to you at all. Divide and conquer, in talking point terms.”

    Um, “Perfessor” Spanky, I linked to cases in which THESE THINGS HAPPENED. The law allows it, nay, even encourages it. That doesn’t mean it happens often, but it does mean that:

    A. There is an incentive to do such things
    B. The law is not written with men in mind

    Anyways, Mr. Cliche, I’ve formed most of my opinions on my own from a variety of sources and books that I’ve read. And I’ve been debating this stuff for years. You are not proving to be much of a challenge.

  35. Spanky

    An interesting thought experiment:

    If a woman were to steel a man’s semen from a used condom, use it to impregnante herself, and then demand child support from the man, does the man bear moral (and therefore, should the man bear legal) responsibility for taking care of the child? After all, the man did not consent to the use of his semen in such a way.

    If a woman were to be raped by a man and impregnated, does the woman bear a legal or moral responsibility to the child once it is born? After all, she did not consent to her impregnation or the use of her womb and ovaries in this way.

    The latter case is, of course, complicated by the possibility of abortion. What if she finds it abhorent for religios or ethical reasons? What if she has been kidnapped and forced to carry the pregnancy to term? Etc etc. She’s produced the child, but against her will. What would or should a court decide?

    The court – usually – attempts to decide in terms of the interests of the child. Even if the mother did not consent to the child, she still bears responsibility for it – she could not, for example, leave it in a dumpster or abandon it on the street. Likewise, a father, even if he did not consent to the birth of a child, abandon the child in a dumpster or on the street. Each bears some legal responsibility to the child. The law doesn’t – and shouldn’t – give two fucks about anything that went on prior to the birth of the child, except for conception. A child was conceived, through no fault or choice of its own. It is a human being, deserving of full rights, yet utterly unable to care for itself and totally dependent on others. The law does not – and should not – concern itself over the morality of the behavior that produced the child. If it was rape, let the father pay a penalty. If the mother stole the semen, let the mother pay a penalty. But denying child support? That’s not punitive to the mother, or the father, but to the child.

    What the MRA movement wants is to move the focus of the law and the moral discussion away from the child, the human being requiring care, and onto the behavior of the parents, namely: fucking. They want to, in effect, transform the conception of children into an economic exchange in which men can pay women the cost of an abortion to absolve themselves of any responsibilty to another human.

    Imagine if a man did not consent to conception, but it happened anyway. What if the man offers to provide money for an abortion? Should he be absolved of responsibility? What if he offers, but he finds out after the child has been born? Can the man, with a few hundred dollars, buy his way out of fatherhood? A woman, certainly, could not do that, because she would still have legal obligations to the child, even if she offered the man a few hundred dollars for him to take full legal responsibility.

    Sorry, neither humans nor wombs nor parental responsibility can be bought or sold. But what if this happened – what if, legally, a man could offer a woman the price of an abortion to absolve himself of legal liability? By commodifying fatherhood (and just fatherhood, since mothers could not do the same to men), you would be creating a good that could be traded. What would a market in fatherhood look like?

  36. Clarence

    “Weren?t the laws written with the children in mind?”

    No, because then divorce -absent proof of abuse or neglect-would be hard to get with children involved, joint custody would be the norm if divorce wasn’t reformed, and maybe even if it was, and visitation would be enforced like they enforce child support.

    Fact is, most of the common law base of the current laws goes back over 500 years to when women were considered the property of men. The trade-off being that they were his absolute responsibility. Many of the more recent additions to the laws of child support were written by people connected with collections agencies. “No fault” divorce itself was pushed mostly by lawyers groups.

    I’m afraid that keeping families together is not high priority to most of those writing our laws.

    See my Roger F. Gay link for more history on the child-support topic.

  37. Clarence

    “Even if the mother did not consent to the child, she still bears responsibility for it – she could not, for example, leave it in a dumpster or abandon it on the street..”

    You obviously didn’t read my link. And the fact is, there are ‘safe harbor’ laws in most states now. A woman CAN legally abandon a baby. I can’t really disagree with that so long as the father is notified if she knows who he is. It’s to give her an “out” short of killing it.

    “The law does not – and should not – concern itself over the morality of the behavior that produced the child. If it was rape, let the father pay a penalty. If the mother stole the semen, let the mother pay a penalty. But denying child support? That?s not punitive to the mother, or the father, but to the child.”

    I produced other ideas short of “not paying child support”, such as changes in custody etc.

    “Imagine if a man did not consent to conception, but it happened anyway. What if the man offers to provide money for an abortion? Should he be absolved of responsibility? What if he offers, but he finds out after the child has been born? Can the man, with a few hundred dollars, buy his way out of fatherhood? A woman, certainly, could not do that, because she would still have legal obligations to the child, even if she offered the man a few hundred dollars for him to take full legal responsibility.”

    These cases have already been tried in courts. In all cases the courts ruled “no”. There was also a case in PA a few years ago where the guy wanted the baby and offered to take care of it, etc. Of course he had no rights, so she got the abortion anyway.

    “Sorry, neither humans nor wombs nor parental responsibility can be bought or sold. But what if this happened – what if, legally, a man could offer a woman the price of an abortion to absolve himself of legal liability? By commodifying fatherhood (and just fatherhood, since mothers could not do the same to men), you would be creating a good that could be traded. What would a market in fatherhood look like?”

    LOL! There is already a market in fatherhood. Not just the competition to be “the one” the woman chooses to let impregnate her, but also in relation to how much child support men of given incomes can provide. Welfare programs helped make many fathers superflous in the inner cities. Indeed, for 20 years (until welfare reform in 96) they actively discouraged father involvement as the woman would not be able to get any welfare if a man lived with her. Women in the inner city had reason to compare governmental support versus whatever she could wring out of the loser she “hooked up” with. Besides, the woman in your hypothetical still has the choice whether to abort or not, so it’s not like the man’s choice enslaves the woman. If I had my way though, she’d have to consider whether she could support the kid on her own or get his consent first before she decided to take the child to term.

  38. Clarence

    “I was referring to child support laws, not divorce laws.”

    Did you read far enough in to see that I was talking about BOTH kinds of laws? Roger F. Gay is all about child support.

    Besides, I’d maintain you can’t talk about how such cs laws are “For the children” and not take a larger look at the system they are part and parcel of. And THE MOST COMMON (for emphasis, not shouting) child support order is between formerly married couples.

  39. caspar dioge

    I had a experience with a woman who told me she could not have any children and then came up pregant. When I asked what happened, it turned out that she had been undergoing fertility treatments but didn’t bother to tell me. Had I known, I would have certainly behaved differently and taken a lot of precautions, but it it this kind of dishonesty that fuels mens fears and forces them out of what otherwise would be rational behavior.

    needless to say, had she not lost the child, I would still have been on the financial hook, against my will and without my knowledge.

    CD

  40. js

    “There was also a case in PA a few years ago where the guy wanted the baby and offered to take care of it, etc. Of course he had no rights, so she got the abortion anyway”

    I totally agree with this result. He has rights, it’s just that his interest in raising a child was outweighed by the woman’s interest in controlling her own body. You don’t get to force a woman to go through pregnancy, even if you want the baby, because it’s her body, not yours. Seriously, why should men have that right? I’m not saying the guy’s interest in raising the child carries no weight, but it’s clear to me that the woman has a greater interest in controlling her own body.

    “Welfare programs helped make many fathers superflous in the inner cities. Indeed, for 20 years (until welfare reform in 96) they actively discouraged father involvement as the woman would not be able to get any welfare if a man lived with her.”

    Wait, now, Clarence, I would have thought you’d approve of this! There you go, a way to support the child without taking money from a man who clearly doesn’t want anything to do with the baby.

  41. js

    “I had a experience with a woman who told me she could not have any children and then came up pregant. When I asked what happened, it turned out that she had been undergoing fertility treatments but didn?t bother to tell me. Had I known, I would have certainly behaved differently and taken a lot of precautions, but it it this kind of dishonesty that fuels mens fears and forces them out of what otherwise would be rational behavior.”

    That woman sucks. Seriously sucks. But we can’t penalize the child for that, either by diminishing the child’s support, or by basing custodial decisions on anything other than the best interests of the child.

  42. Clarence

    “That woman sucks. Seriously sucks. But we can?t penalize the child for that, either by diminishing the child?s support, or by basing custodial decisions on anything other than the best interests of the child.”

    Well, now you seem to contradict yourself. How can being with a deceitful mother be “in the best interests” of the child? What, the father’s going to drop it on its head or something? You do know that in the 19th century, in the relatively few cases where custody was at it issue it usually went to the father, right? This was because he was considered the more responsible one, and YES-because of real-honest-to-God-sexism – he had more chances to bring in opportunities to bring in income to support it.

    Even if you wanted to assert that the bio mother was usually the best choice for caregiver, I’d think you would want to reconsider that had she shown herself to be of evil character. She won’t raise a good child if she has low morals.

  43. Clarence

    “Wait, now, Clarence, I would have thought you?d approve of this! There you go, a way to support the child without taking money from a man who clearly doesn?t want anything to do with the baby. ”

    Well, now, you see the results of fatherlessness in the inner cities. Or maybe you don’t, but I do: I happen to live in one. More to the point, it was all about the wallet.Government or daddy, whose is bigger? To be fair to the men, many of them gave her and their baby support “under the table”.

  44. Clarence

    I’d just love js, or anyone, really to give me a reason why I should EVER trust women?

    They often don’t trust each other ( I can’t count the female coworkers who’ve confided in me their mistrust of their “sisters”), and the law encourages them in deceitful practices. Child support doesn’t seem like a big deal until you are stuck with it for 18 plus years whether sick or well, unemployed, or not. They can even tell you where and what kind of jobs you must work if they slap “imputed” income on you. The payor has to pay under threat of imprisonment and garnishment of wages, loss of licenses,passports, etc. This can only be called slavery: Any other term for it would innacurate.

    So be careful whom you sleep with, dispose of your condoms, take the “male pill” when it comes out, don’t trust a women’s word.

    And weep for a country that builds and encourages this much mistrust between its sexes. Nothing good is coming from this, and nothing good will come from it in the future.

  45. js

    “How can being with a deceitful mother be ?in the best interests? of the child?”

    Maybe she’s deceitful, but he’s in jail. Maybe she’s deceitful, but he doesn’t want the baby. Maybe she’s deceitful, but his job requires constant travel. Maybe she made one awful decision in a lifetime of good ones. Maybe, maybe, maybe…it’s a case-by-case issue.

    “Well, now, you see the results of fatherlessness in the inner cities.”

    So, it’s not that you want women to stop seeking child support from men, it’s that you want all unmarried pregnant women to be forced to have abortions or give up their babies?

  46. js

    You trust women the same way you trust anyone else–you get to know them, you learn a lot about them, you let them earn your trust bit by bit, and then you take the leap. Just like men! My god–it’s so crazy, it just might work! I mean, come on. This whole “wimmins is CRAZY!” shtick doesn’t exactly enhance your argument that you aren’t sexist, no matter how much anecdotal evidence you claim to have in your workplace.

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